> >> >self-producing is a subset of self-organized
> >I would like to see some examples of self-organizing. that is not
> >self-producing to make this point clear.
OK, I will use the notation like:
SET
subset | subset if the subset's do not overlapand
subset/subset if they can overlap.
SELFORGANIZING
dissipative/ self-producing
So there are systems that are dissipative and self-producing, only
dissipative and only self-producing [see below].
self-referentiality is a part of the definition of self-producing
[not meaning it is self-aware, just that it has an internal system
with internal standards].
having established the above [and please correct us if we are wrong]
set statement
I will try to link it to the words self-reproducing, replicating, and
non-selfreproducing
REPLICATION
selfreproducing|non-selfreproducing/other-reproducing
Here comes the difficult part, maybe you set-specialists [who are
they:-)] can help me when I am mistaken
with question:
what is the relation between the two sets
REPLICATION and SELFORGANIZING
I think it is:
REPLICATION/SELFORGANIZING
because there are replicating systems that are not dissipative, not
self-producing but non-selfreplicating [virusses].
Also consider that evolution by natural selection is considered to be
self-organizing [where an interbreeding species is seen as a system].
Here the species is made up of entities [organisms] that are
self-producing, self-reproducing, dissipative but not
non-self-reproducing. This seems to hang on the definition of the
system-border of a system.
Any comments?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
These are statements relevant to the things above, please feel free
to add your wisdom:-)
> >The virus is a replicator, but non-selfproducing
> >and non-selfreproducing. This does not mean that the virus does not
> >have some causal role in its own replication.
>
> Precisely.
>
>
>
> Self-organized but not dissipative structures:
>
> Crystals, snow flakes. Generally: equilibrial self-organization.
>
>
>
> Dissipative structures but not autopoietic:
>
> The Benard cell, chemical clocks, vortices(?).
>
>
> >Selfproducing systems are always dissipative
> >If this is true, what systems are dissipative [in the sense of
> >prigogine], but not self-organized?
>
> None. A dissipative structure is by definition dynamic self-organization.
>
>
> About self-referentiality: Autopoietic systems are organizationally
> self-referential, but they are not self-aware. This means that autopoietic
> self-reference is only apparent to an observer, not to the autopoietic
> system itself.
Theories come and go, the frog stays [F. Jacob]
-------------------------------------------------------
|Hans-Cees Speel School of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and management
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