Re: What we MEAN when we say "complexity"

John J. Kineman (jjk@NGDC.NOAA.GOV)
Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:59:52 -0600


Reply to Cliff:

At 04:10 PM 7/23/98 -0600, you wrote:

>
>Here's another:
>
>Classical thermodynamics experiment, closed container with two
>internal chambers separated by a wall. State 1: gas in equilibrium on
>one side, vacuum on the other, no leakage. State 2: open the wall, gas
>comes to new equilibrium in both chambers.
>
>Which state is more organized? Which more complex? Which more ordered?
>Which has higher entropy? What kind of entropy?
>
>The REAL question: how many SYSTEMS are there? In state 1? In state 2?
>
>Hint: How you ask the question is far more important than what your
>answer is.
>

My earlier response to Don's cunundrum was undoubtedly a naive one, so I
might as well keep sticking my neck out. I would be curious to know why a
simple definition won't work.

To me, neither of these examples would be self-organization because there
is no individual "self" defined, aside from the experimenter. The gas as a
whole has no individualistic properties - the experiment would be
repeatable with any similar volume of gas. To my naive view, both states
above are organized by the environment which we, as experimenters, created.
They are therefore not self-organized. The experiment-experimenter system
is, of course, self-organizing and self-defining. The "more" organized
therefore depends on the experimenter's definition of organization.

Both, according to Rosen, are infinitely complex if we consider them
deeply, i.e. to the quantum level of the gas and wall. But if we consider
the relative complexity of the interaction between observer and system, as
in recent discussions, they are both simple because we perceive them as
volumes and our concept and definition of volumes is not complex.

I've never been good with entropy, so I'll skip that one.

How many sysytems? Doesn't this depend on how the experimenter defines a
system?

Surely I've missed the point, but if our previous discussions mean
anything, I need to test the conclusions. Where have I gone wrong?
-----------------------------------------------
John J. Kineman, Physical Scientist/Ecologist
National Geophysical Data Center
325 Broadway E/GC1 (3100 Marine St. Rm: A-152)
Boulder, Colorado 80303 USA
(303) 497-6900 (phone)
(303) 497-6513 (fax)
jjk@ngdc.noaa.gov (email)