>> Let's start with the modeling relation,
>> i.e., relation between a natural and formal systems. In "Life itself"
>> Rosen first introduced the modeling relationship between 2 formal systems
>> and then said that the same thing can exist between a natural and formal
>> systems. This transition is not clear at all!
>> A formal system is a set
>> of statements expressed in a formal language which can be combined in
>> a number of ways or deducted from each other. We don't see anything
>> comparable in a natural system. The natural system may have no
>> language and no statements!
>
>You clearly have not read the three chapters in "Anticipatory Systems"
which the
>sections in "Life Itself" refer to. There he builds up the elements of
>correspondence between the symbols in the formal system and the symbols in our
>PERCEPTION of the natural system. He does this with the other aspects
> too...with great care and VERY convincingly. What you are forgetting is
>that our only acess to
>the natural system for manipulations like the modeling relation is after
>perception.
The major problem here is that modeling makes sence only if models can
be communicated to somebody else (or at least to yourself in the
future). But there is no guarantee that the receiver of the model
will have the same perception. It may easily happen that the model
diagram will not commute after the model is communicated.
In order to communicate (even to yourself) you need a common
classification of your perception tools (e.g., sense organs) and
you need to test if this classification is reliable. In other
words, you should be sure that you can extrapolate your perceptions
to other people. This is the core of the discussion on non-physical
experience. But Rosen starts all his formalisms AFTER perception.
>> Rosen wrote his equation
>> [10C.6] without further explanation. He said "I have since repeated
>> this formal argument many times in previous work and not need repeat
>> it here" (p. 251). No citations follow. Don, can you help to find the
>> reference?
>
>the key work is: Some Relational Cell Models: The Metabolism-Repair System."
>Chapter 4 of Foundations ofMathematical Biology Vol. 2, 217-253. N.Y. & London,
>Academic Press. 1972
Don, thank you for the reference!
I got this paper and found that this formalism works for some
very specific self-reparing systems like neuron networks. Rosen's
formalism is based on replacing system components. It is easy to check
that the component was replaced if it should appear in the SAME PLACE.
But what if you don't know beforehand where this component will be
replaced? The replaced component may appear in a different place.
You may think that the system is dying, whereas the real system
has already escaped and is in another place. Try to use Rosen's
formalism to describe replication in cellular automata, e.g., the
Langton's self-reproducing loop. You will see that it is not
feasible.
>> The problem of replication/fabrication is very important because
>> it is the only way for a system to become entirely autonomous
>> (self-entailed). Did Rosen say anything new about replication
>> compared to Von Neumann? Von Neumann actually described a self-replicating
>> machine (in Rosen's sence), not an organism.
>
>Read Rosen's paper critiquing von Neuman......he shows why von Neuman was
> totally
>wrong!
I would like to read this! Please, give me the reference.
>your comments seem to be mainly about the 70% you missed. Do not interpret
this
> as
>an attempt to be rude as it is not. It is my frank opinion. You need to do
> lots
>more work before you understand even why you are having difficulty....it is not
> in
>Rosen's work...but in your own unfamiliarity with it. Only you can deal with
> that.
I appreciate very much the philosophy of Robert Rosen. But at this
point I don't see much value in his mathematics. This is my personal
opinion and I am not going to insist on it. I hope that there are
some other people on the list who may correct me if I am wrong.
Cheers!
-Alexei
-------------------------------------------------
Alexei Sharov Research Scientist
Dept. of Entomology, Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA 24061
Tel. (540) 231-7316; FAX (540) 231-9131; e-mail sharov@vt.edu
Home page: http://www.gypsymoth.ento.vt.edu/~sharov/alexei.html