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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 12:55:38 -0400
From: mikuleck@hsc.vcu.edu (mikuleck)
Organization: VCU Dept of Physiology
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Subject: Re: Dynamics of systems
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Don Mikulecky http://views.vcu.edu/~mikuleck/
replies:
The idea that something that only applies to machines can also apply to living
organisms revives Descartes fundamental error. Organisms are distinct from
machines in EXACTLY the ways that the question was aimed.
Respectfully,
Don Mikulecky
John J. Kineman wrote:
> Thought I'd respond to Henry Cohen's message with one general comment,
> although I cannot
> evaluate the modeling details as such.
>
> This construction (whether workable or not) applies only to mechanical
> systems. In my view, there must be another item addet to "what a system
> does" if we are talking about biological systems. The Gets, Transforms,
> Delivers, list applies to "what we can see it do" it does not describe
> strictly, "what it does." The distincition is important for the
> consideration of consciousness. I suggest adding "experience" to what it
> actually does, although I recognize the difficulty in modeling this.
>
> > Hereafter some suggestions on how systems "work"
> >(a model)
> >
> >1 - a system DOES something
> > anything doing something is a system
> > it can be
> > living
> > man made (an automobile)
> > virtual (an economic system)
> > unicellular
> > complex as cosmic universe
> > they all work on the same model , when observed by us
> > =
> >
> >2 - a system, when observed by us
> > GETS (input)
> > TRANSFORMS
> > DELIVERS (output)
> >
> >and that implies movement
> >
> >3 - all those operations are done by included "agents"
> >
> >4 - an active system includes a linear "program"
> > a) to get
> > agents for discrimination when linking
> > agents to memorize
> > agents for motility
> > agents for keeping energy resources
> > b) to transform
> > agents to transform according to program
> > agents for "stockage" after transformation
> > c) to deliver
> > agents operating for output
> >
> >5 - this linear program is included in a cyclic activity
> > - an agent "goto a)" activates the next cycle
> > when stockage is near minimum limits
> > - when output is not sufficient to keep stockage under upper=
> >
> >limits
> > an agent for regulation acts by negative feedback on input=
> >s
> > =
> >
> >6 - A system acts by cycles. After each cycle the system becomes differen=
> >t
> >when observed as a whole
> >
> >7 - all those agents are systems (subsystems), with their own personal =
> >
> >programs
> >built on the same model
> >
> >8 - systems are generally discreet because of
> > non continuous inputs or outputs
> >
> >9 - The linear part of the program is valid inside limits
> > - minimum limit for inputs:
> > energy necessary for execution of program
> > - maximum limit : capacity for stockage
> > =
> >
> >When out of limits, the system collapses liberating subsystems
> >(chaos ?) until they reorganize (or not) into a new system
> >
> >10 - Level of observation determines the conclusions we can formulate :
> >
> > aleatory observations just a statement
> > aleatory + 1 level hypothesis ?
> > aleatory + n level statistically etablishment of
> >"laws"
> > =
> >
> >11 - when applying a law the aleatory elements may have varied
> >without the law being modified, until emergence manifests something =
> >
> >unexpected .
> >
> >As we go down on levels, the quantity of subsystems involved goes up
> >
> >12 - To GET, a system links to other systems
> > - on the same level (horizontal links)
> > either incorporating a whole system
> > either incorporating the outputs of other systems
> > - on lower levels (vertical links with agents)
> >
> >13 - some systems can run a temporary symbiotic activity
> > the outputs of one are the inputs of the other
> > and vice-versa
> >This symbiosis could run through a group of systems
> >But such autarcy can not last, because of entropy
> >
> >14 - an input on a system modifies its environment
> > environment permanently supports feedbacks which modify it
> > therefore a subsequent input cannot be identical to previous
> >
> >15 - how those programs are set up is part of metaphysics, and
> >probably without answers for us.
> >
> >16 - if those suggestions are accepted as facts,our logic would need to
> >change from linear and absolute to cyclic (non linear) and relative.
> >(new paradigm ?)
> >
> >---------------------------
> >To be valid, this model must show no internal contradictions,
> >neither disagreement with what is firmly established today.
> >
> >I hope for contradictors on feedbacks ....
> >Thanks
> >
> >All these items, and others are developped in an essay =
> >
> >"Liaisons et systemes " available on request by e-mail
> >(written in french, without accents, 160 k.)
> >
> >
> >Henry Cohen =
> >
> >(henry_cohen@compuserve.com).
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------
> John J. Kineman, Physical Scientist/Ecologist
> National Geophysical Data Center
> 325 Broadway E/GC1 (3100 Marine St. Rm: A-152)
> Boulder, Colorado 80303 USA
> (303) 497-6900 (phone)
> (303) 497-6513 (fax)
> jjk@ngdc.noaa.gov (email)
> (303) 497-6513 (fax)
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> John J. Kineman, Physical Scientist/Ecologist
> National Geophysical Data Center
> 325 Broadway E/GC1 (3100 Marine St. Rm: A-152)
> Boulder, Colorado 80303 USA
> (303) 497-6900 (phone)
> (303) 497-6513 (fax)
> jjk@ngdc.noaa.gov (email)
> (303) 497-6513 (fax)
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