> First of all, I'll come into line with others on considering
> "replication" as making a copy of "something"
> (regardless of whether it is done by that same "something"
> or by something else).
>
> Hans Cees:
> > >self-reproducing is a subset of self-producing (autopoiesis)
> > This is not true, until proven differently I assume that there are
> > systems that are not selfproducing but are self-reproducing
> > [hypercycles].
>
> Could the source of the above disagreement be that we are using
> different definitions of "self-reproducing"?
>
> Are you viewing "self-reproducing" as meaning just that
> something makes a copy of itself? If so, then I believe you
> are right to say that "self-reproducing" is not a subset of
> "self-producing".
I do
>
> I was, though, using a more restrictive definition of
> "self-reproducing" that not only indicated that it was the
> self making the copy, but also indicated that the copy was
> made by internally producing (or processing) the components.
Now I understand, and I agree that that will ussually be the case for
self-reproducing systems.
> Self producing is definately not a subset of self replicating
>
> I guess it is conceivable that a sysetm could internally produce
> parts that were only used for the construction of a copy of itself...
> that is...the system never uses the internally produced parts to replace
> its own parts. In such a case, then indeed a self-reproducing system would
> not be a self-producing system.
I agree with this logic, but would like to stste that the
macromolecules Eigen talks about [I'd like to stick to his example]
are not really a system at all. What we call a system is usually
something with a cell-mebrane, conveniantly having a physical
boundary between internally and externally. But a nono-selfproducing
system wouldn't have that membrane, and there would be no boundary
between internally and externally. Only the processes the molecule
would do. So if an enzym would produce itsselve from molecules around
it, it would be self-reproducing, but not self-producing because it
cannot repair itsselve, or shield itsselve from deterioration. So my
point is that a non-sepfproducing system won't have an internally.
Although, If you define "self-producing"
> just as "internally producing all of its components" then a Self-reproducing
> system would be a subset of "self-producing" where self-producing contains the
> union of those systems that internally produce components for themselves
> and internally produces components for a copy. Some systems will do both.
I agree, most systems in biological evolution do both
> If you agree with these concepts, feel free to relable the sets with
> more appropriate words!!!
I would still prefer to quit self-replicating and stay
self-reproducing :-).
Because self-replicating seems to implie that there must be a system to be
reproduced, meaning that there is a self-producing
internal system. If we assume that hypercycle-molecules are no
system, self-replicating would be nonsence: there is no self [system]
to replicate. On the other hand selfreproducing has the same flaw.
Andof course you can view the system that reproduces as a system, the
boundaries being the molecule itsselve.
Hmmmmmmmm.......
I think the best thing to do is to see self-reproducing as a subset of
self-producing, assuming that there is a self-mechanisms that also
produces itsselve. Self-rep;ication would be the word for
hypercycles, having no internal self-production system.
But this solution seems to be rather complicated, and maybe we should
just equate the two words. ?????
Any suggestions?
>
>
> Jeff Prideaux
> Jprideaux@gems.vcu.edu
> BS Electrical engineering,
> MS Biomedical engineering
> Currently at Virginia commonwealth university pursuing a Ph.D.
> in Physiology
>
Theories come and go, the frog stays [F. Jacob]
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