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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 16:56:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans-Cees Speel <HANSS@sepa.tudelft.nl>
Subject: Re: Further comments on complexity
To: DON MIKULECKY <MIKULECKY@Gems.VCU.EDU>
Reply-to: hanss@sepa.tudelft.nl
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Don Mikulecky, reply to Hans-Cees
> Don, I have a problem with the PCP list. Can you forward my
messages
> to it? That woulsd be very helpfull; HC
>
>> Please focus on the content and not my horrible style.
>
> will do
>
>
>> > I would say that it is rosen [as far as I understand what he is
> saying]> > that is using another language than the people from for
> instance the> > Santafe-I. Because that language shows us things
the
> Santafe institute> > people do not look at, he sees thing as more
> complicated that the> > SF-people.
>
>> Yes, that's true.
>> > This is precisely what Bruce is talking about, saying that the
> language
>> > of description is one of the clues as to why we find things
complex.
>> > I see no other problem here than that one person says: 'you
haven't
>> > used my stuff in your story'. Unless you show why the other
> should do> > that, you are not communicating, but arguing, and that
> doesn't help> > anyone.
>> > In my view Bruce's point is new to this list and should be
elaborated
> on> > a great deal.
>
>> Here I strongly disagree. Bruce seems to be interested in
> "measuring" > complexity (see his home page) which is in total
violation
> of the idea > that complex systems involve non-computable elements
as
> a key ingredient.
>
> I think this is the key point; you see the complex system as having
> complexity of its own. As I understand Bruce, he does not, and says
> that the language you look at it with, determines the complexity.
> As to how much Bruce wantsa to measure complexity, I do not know,
> you should ask him. I wonder however if to measure and to compute
is
> the same. I think you can measure according to an agreed standard,
> which can be used to compute. As I see it you say that the standard
of
> the SF-people is not accurate for computing lifes complexity?
Here you seem to have misunderstood both of us. I am simply pursuing
Rosen's ideas. Rosen states clearly that complexity is a matter of
how we use the modeling relation and NOT an intrinsic property of real
systems.
Bruce disagreed with this in his paper. If I understand you, you
have our positions reversed. Read Bruce's home page to see that he
consistantly
refers to "measures" of complexity. I did not make that up!
>
> He does make the point that you cannot measure complexity until you
> have closely defined what you will measure. This is the same point
you
> are making as I see it, since you say that the SF-language is not
> capable for this.
> It seems to me that it is usefull here to keep two claims separate:
> -complexity is measurable
> -measurable or not, complexity depends on the language you use
>
Yes, I agree totally!
>
>
>> Yes, and if I live and work another 59 years it might get better.
>
> Lets hope so:-)
>
> Meanwhile,
>> I do the best I can as a person trained in physiology wading in very
>> deep waters outside my "legitimate" realm of expertise.
>
> In these matters evryone is a layman, I suppose.
>
> greetings
> Hans-Cees
>
> Theories come and go, the frog stays [F. Jacob]
> -------------------------------------------------------
> |Hans-Cees Speel School of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis
and management
> |Technical University Delft, Jaffalaan 5 2600 GA Delft PO Box 5015
The Netherlands
> |telephone +3115785776 telefax +3115783422 E-mail
hanss@sepa.tudelft.nl
> HTTP://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~afd_ba/hanss.html featuring evolution
and memetics!
I will forward the messages to PCP. This one too if you send it back.
I can't keep a copy in the mode in which I am using to reply.
Best wishes, Don